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Post by jackal on Oct 26, 2017 11:18:48 GMT -5
If Mercer wins those tight games instead of losing them then they win the conference.....which then would draw better recruits....and there are better high school players coming out of Florida, & Georgia then anywhere else in the country. Texas is strong as well but too far. Simple formula. So yes, MU could be a powerhouse....but they have to win the tight games to win the conference which they have shown ( and now have the stigma attached) they have a tough time doing. I am not promoted this idea....but do you feel MU could be winning more with a different coach? Is there a next coach out there that can get this program to a title? Talent is here, that is obvious, so the recruiting has been good and really would be very good if they win. If you win every game, yes, you will probably win the conference. Every team can say that. I'm sure that's everyone's goal. Even assuming you are correct about recruiting, you are missing the point. Mercer doesn't have some wall up around Georgia where only they can recruit. Samford, for instance, has almost 40 players on their roster from Georgia. Even their head coach, Chris Hatcher, is from Macon. So, I just don't see your argument. Yes, Mercer is in Georgia. Yes, Georgia generally has some pretty good football talent. No, Mercer does not nor will they likely ever have a monopoly or first dibs on those players. Does a recruit necessarily care about a team's record? Maybe. In my experience, recruits care about a lot of different things, just like most of us did when choosing a university. Location, academics, playing time, coaching staff, etc. are all factors. Your forumla just doesn't add up to me. Take Georgia Southern. Winning + tradition + recruiting + Georgia = sucks.
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 26, 2017 11:37:02 GMT -5
It doesn't add up to me. Take Georgia Southern. Winning + tradition + recruiting + Georgia = sucks. This might be the first thing you've ever said that FUBeAR totally agrees with. lol
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 26, 2017 11:40:58 GMT -5
I feel like this is Groundhog Day with the recruiting conversation. Winning helps, but I wouldn't put in anywhere near the top tier of why recruits choose where they go to school. Very minor. If it did matter, Mercer would never get any decent recruits. No real tradition, no titles to hang their hat on yet. Program is too new. But we still seem to be able to recruit talent. And it appears to be getting better year over year. It's just a faulty premise.
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Post by jackal on Oct 26, 2017 12:35:34 GMT -5
I feel like this is Groundhog Day with the recruiting conversation. Winning helps, but I wouldn't put in anywhere near the top tier of why recruits choose where they go to school. Very minor. If it did matter, Mercer would never get any decent recruits. No real tradition, no titles to hang their hat on yet. Program is too new. But we still seem to be able to recruit talent. And it appears to be getting better year over year. It's just a faulty premise. It has always been my impression that, on balance, most recruits at this level are going to be somewhat interchangeable. Every team's core roster is going to be made up of similar-type players. Do I think there is going to be a huge amount of difference between a 6'2 270 lbs offensive linemen recruit from an Atlanta metro area 5A high school and one from a Nashville area high school? I don't. That's where coaching comes in - to get the most out of these players because every program is going to have access to them. Now, I think every team is on the lookout for market inefficiencies and undervalued players. Sometimes, those are the real finds in recruiting. Guys like Jayson Foster, who was only 5'6 145 lbs. Armanti Edwards wanted to play QB, but most bigger programs looked at him like a WR, so he went to where he could play QB. Furman had a really good 6'7 315 lbs OT a number of years ago named Joel Bell. Bell was the son of missionaries and really had little exposure to high school football and escaped the notice of bigger programs. Those are the guys you want, not necessarily the 3 star guy getting a bunch of offers from MAC and SunBelt schools. Those are guys that make the difference in recruiting. Schools like Mercer and Furman may sometimes land a 3 star recruit, but in my experience those guys rarely pan out. I am always way more excited about undersized all-state players on top high school programs.
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 26, 2017 12:46:08 GMT -5
The name John Russ comes to mind...
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Post by chez23 on Oct 26, 2017 12:48:21 GMT -5
Mercer gets good recruits now because of facilities, academics and decent good conference. No titles is playing right into my argument about W's are most important...and they really have a good team this year but still are losing tight games. It's unfortunately the stigma that this staff has hanging over their heads. The "new" program excuse is ridiculous. These millennials could care less about history....they want the here and now. FYI....I do appreciate all the back and forth as I am learning a lot about SOCON football.
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ursus
Spires Bear
Posts: 222
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Post by ursus on Oct 26, 2017 12:51:14 GMT -5
I feel like this is Groundhog Day with the recruiting conversation. Winning helps, but I wouldn't put in anywhere near the top tier of why recruits choose where they go to school. Very minor. If it did matter, Mercer would never get any decent recruits. No real tradition, no titles to hang their hat on yet. Program is too new. But we still seem to be able to recruit talent. And it appears to be getting better year over year. It's just a faulty premise. It has always been my impression that, on balance, most recruits at this level are going to be somewhat interchangeable. Every team's core roster is going to be made up of similar-type players. Do I think there is going to be a huge amount of difference between a 6'2 270 lbs offensive linemen recruit from an Atlanta metro area 5A high school and one from a Nashville area high school? I don't. That's where coaching comes in - to get the most out of these players because every program is going to have access to them. I'm gonna disagree with you here. The football in Georgia is better than Tennessee.
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 26, 2017 12:54:15 GMT -5
You seem to be contradicting yourself. If millennials don't care about history, why would last year's wins have anything to do with their decision making?
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ursus
Spires Bear
Posts: 222
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Post by ursus on Oct 26, 2017 12:57:12 GMT -5
You seem to be contradicting yourself. If millennials don't care about history, why would last year's wins have anything to do with their decision making? Need to change the team name to Avocados. We'll be swimming in five stars.
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Post by jackal on Oct 26, 2017 13:07:51 GMT -5
Mercer gets good recruits now because of facilities, academics and decent good conference. No titles is playing right into my argument about W's are most important...and they really have a good team this year but still are losing tight games. It's unfortunately the stigma that this staff has hanging over their heads. The "new" program excuse is ridiculous. These millennials could care less about history....they want the here and now. FYI....I do appreciate all the back and forth as I am learning a lot about SOCON football. I'm just saying I don't think you realize how hard it is to "get titles." Ask Western Carolina. They haven't been to the postseason since 1983.
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Post by jackal on Oct 26, 2017 13:08:48 GMT -5
It has always been my impression that, on balance, most recruits at this level are going to be somewhat interchangeable. Every team's core roster is going to be made up of similar-type players. Do I think there is going to be a huge amount of difference between a 6'2 270 lbs offensive linemen recruit from an Atlanta metro area 5A high school and one from a Nashville area high school? I don't. That's where coaching comes in - to get the most out of these players because every program is going to have access to them. I'm gonna disagree with you here. The football in Georgia is better than Tennessee. I can live with some of the recruits we've gotten from Tennessee. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqi9JKzKWzs
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Post by wcugrad95 on Oct 26, 2017 13:53:36 GMT -5
Mercer gets good recruits now because of facilities, academics and decent good conference. No titles is playing right into my argument about W's are most important...and they really have a good team this year but still are losing tight games. It's unfortunately the stigma that this staff has hanging over their heads. The "new" program excuse is ridiculous. These millennials could care less about history....they want the here and now. FYI....I do appreciate all the back and forth as I am learning a lot about SOCON football. I'm just saying I don't think you realize how hard it is to "get titles." Ask Western Carolina. They haven't been to the postseason since 1983. Ouch - but true I'm not going to dive too deep into this because all I see are dozens of posts covering the same ground. But riddle me this - WCU hasn't been to the postseason in 34 years, but we have had a ton of talent that keeps coming to little old Cullowhee. And I am talking GA kids, players from Texas, etc. Why? They came because they thought they would get a chance to play early, or could play the position they wanted, or they could be part of building something. But mostly, they came because of the guy who was recruiting them and built a relationship. Get rid of your staff and see how fast your pipeline dries up until the new one figures it out. Western has gone through a bunch of bad hires - Mercer hasn't had a bad coaching hire in football yet.
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Post by jackal on Oct 26, 2017 14:09:05 GMT -5
I'm just saying I don't think you realize how hard it is to "get titles." Ask Western Carolina. They haven't been to the postseason since 1983. Ouch - but true I'm not going to dive too deep into this because all I see are dozens of posts covering the same ground. But riddle me this - WCU hasn't been to the postseason in 34 years, but we have had a ton of talent that keeps coming to little old Cullowhee. And I am talking GA kids, players from Texas, etc. Why? They came because they thought they would get a chance to play early, or could play the position they wanted, or they could be part of building something. But mostly, they came because of the guy who was recruiting them and built a relationship. Get rid of your staff and see how fast your pipeline dries up until the new one figures it out. Western has gone through a bunch of bad hires - Mercer hasn't had a bad coaching hire in football yet. That's the Georgia Southern model. Don't like the results, fire the coach. The issue is that you have to have someone to replace the coach with. If you don't have a really good answer to that question, you are in deep kimchi.
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Post by FUBeAR on Oct 26, 2017 15:21:36 GMT -5
Sustained Success in FCS Football is an expertly seasoned & prepared stew. I was part of the longest (I believe) sustained success stew in SoCon history. So, let me tell you all what I smelled & tasted as someone who has LIVED the success you are all SPECULATING upon.
The 3 main ingredients of this stew are Players, Coaching, and Culture.
Recipes will vary, but at the FCS level, I would say 30% comes from the Players, 35% comes from the Coaches, 25% comes from the Culture, and 10% comes from other important ingredients.
Culture - Regardless of Players and Coaches abilities, NO Sustained Success can be achieved in FCS Football without a PERFECT Culture. The smell and taste of the Culture will constantly be affected by the Coaches and Players. The good thing about a new program is that you have NO Culture when you start the stew and the bad thing about a new program is that you have NO Culture when you start the stew. But Culture develops rapidly and it is extremely delicate. Sometimes it can change into something entirely different than it was before you even know it and it can become rancid seemingly overnight. Culture begins at the Executive Levels of the University and includes the President and the Trustees/Regents/Board of Visitors (whatever). It includes everyone else from the Director of Athletics to the guy who washes the Players towels overnight. The %'s I mentioned above are my assessment of the current impacts. I think they have changed a bit over the years. The sustained success that I lived was probably, as much as 40% due to Culture - with most of that 15% delta coming from a decrease in the impact of the Players (we really weren't very good at all :-) ).
Players - In the earlier discussion, you are both right. Every FCS School should aspire to landing 3 & 4 Star Recruits and IMPACT FBS Transfers that are great fits (see Culture) for their Program. They should try to get about 2 or 3 of those (HighValue Recruits + FBS Transfer)...maybe 4, at the most, every year. That means these types of young men are about 10% of your Players. You can go as high as 20%, but any higher than that and I would say your Culture is about to go off the rails OR something VERY strange has occurred. Either an FBS Program in your 'neighborhood' got the Death Penalty and you've hit the Lottery, or you are Recruiting "Stars" that don't really have the Offers the Recruiting Services say they do...something. And...you should be, as Jackal said, SEARCHING HIGH & LOW for those under-valued, high-achievers (Felton was from the Duren, Germany part of TN...BTW & Joel Bell grew up playing soccer in Egypt and Croatia). Those guys will, sometimes quietly, be the "Keepers of the Flame" for the Culture you want. Offensive Line is the place that you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to find these guys. Find the 6-1 255 HS Center or OG, who is athletic as heck, and just gets his man blocked every play. Hey, find 2 of them if you can. Maybe they'll grow an inch or 2 and they will surely add 30+ lbs of 'fightin' weight,' but even if they don't get any taller, they will still be athletic as heck, weigh 285, and get their man blocked every play. If you get a bunch of 6-5 'project' OLmen that FBS Schools passed on because they are NOT athletic and DON'T get their man blocked every play. That's just NOT going to change. You can Coach them up on Technique and maybe they get a little less awkward, but you can't turn clumsy dorks into ATHLETES...and you can't do anything to make them WANT to block their man every play. Obviously, a soapbox type of issue for me. You can also find WR's, RB's, and LB's that fit this category...and, on occasion, a John Russ-type of QB or an Ernest Gibson-type of CB (FU walk-on to NFL draftee and Super Bowl starter). Your roster should be 25% (or more) of this type. If you can't find 25% (4-6 guys / year) of this type - the ones that most people don't want, that end up being EXCELLENT Players for you...then you aren't working hard enough in Recruiting. The rest of the roster - 55-65% - can be made up of "standard issue" FCS-quality 1 & 2 Star Players. This mix will give the Culture just the right flavor
Coaches - I could (maybe should) write a book on this. So, quickly...MUST * Love KIDS who are FCS Players * Love Coaching...TEACHING side of Coaching...can't just roll the balls out in FCS * Must be willing to outwork every other staff in D1 Football...every day * Must be SMART & apply those Smarts * Must have EQUAL parts of EGO & HUMILITY & both must be HEALTHY - if you're missing either of those at the FCS Level, you're not going to be successful in the long run
Other 10% - Fans, Media, Marketing, Boosters, Wives, Players Families, ALUMNI PLAYERS!!!!!, Rest of the School - Profs, Staff, Students - Need to get them ALL on your Team
All right - a bit of a rant, sorry.
Just thought y'all might want to know what the SUSTAINED SUCCESS in FCS STEW looks/tastes/smells like...from someone who swam in it for about, roughly, 10 years.
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Post by jackal on Oct 26, 2017 15:54:06 GMT -5
I think that's good insight. Recruiting, in my observations, is not just about winning a bunch and having a lot of guys jump on a bandwagon.
One "under valued" guy I'm going to watch closely is Furman's Adrian Hope, a currently redshirted OLB. That dude was a HS defensive end who finished with 145 tackles, 56 sacks, and was all everything in Florida 6A football. He had 24 sacks as a senior!
How'd a guy like that end up on a team like Furman? Maybe other reasons, but I bet it is because he's a 6'1 210 lbs defensive end. If he'd put up those exact same numbers and was 30 pounds heavier and 3 inches taller he'd be probably be playing for the University of Florida.
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