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Post by wcugrad95 on Oct 17, 2017 16:57:06 GMT -5
@fubear - I know a certain poster on some of the other boards you can run that by to get an answer  |
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Post by chez23 on Oct 18, 2017 9:41:52 GMT -5
Hot take: Mercer will be the same after the game, win or lose. Program changer because this is the type of game that propels a program forward, shows progress and showcases to recruits that MU is a real player in SOCON and FCS. Big rival on the road ( homecoming to) and getting the W will give this program the confidence to win out in Conference play. Every season has that one game, a statement game, that can change the year....IMO this is the one. Hot take: You way off. If MU is the same win/lose after this game then your stick them in the average program category. Big wins on the road give momentum and teams on the rise use that to their advantage, Do you not think the win on the road at #17 then Citadel gave this team confidence? Chatt stinks..so they don't count, Furman on the road matters to this program Big time. Win and MU will receive ranking votes.....beat Samford (Furman momentum) and MU is notionally ranked. That is why a win means so much more then a Loss and make a BIG difference. |
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 18, 2017 10:00:18 GMT -5
We just fundamentally disagree. Again. It seems like you point to every game and act like just based on that 1 game, if Mercer wins, they are National Title contenders and if they lose, they should just shut down the program. It doesn't work like that. The reality is 6 or 7 out of 9 teams in the conference this year are going to finish up below where they wanted to (not making the playoffs). Does that mean they are all doomed? My goodness, it's a marathon, not sprint.
The reality is this, we are an underdog, in their stadium, for their Homecoming, and they are the hottest team in the conference right now. I believe we have the ability to win, and if we do, it will be great, and we will still have our goal of the playoffs in front of us. But, if we don't, what happens? Do we lose recruits? Not likely. Do you have to win big games for the kids to win in future weeks? Clearly not, because we beat ranked Citadel after a terrible loss to ETSU.
Important game. But program changing? Come on, man. You act like every game is either going to turn Mercer into North Dakota State or reduce them to Arkansas Pine Bluff.
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Post by jackal on Oct 18, 2017 10:02:41 GMT -5
Hot take: Mercer will be the same after the game, win or lose. Program changer because this is the type of game that propels a program forward, shows progress and showcases to recruits that MU is a real player in SOCON and FCS. Big rival on the road ( homecoming to) and getting the W will give this program the confidence to win out in Conference play. Every season has that one game, a statement game, that can change the year....IMO this is the one. Hot take: You way off. If MU is the same win/lose after this game then your stick them in the average program category. Big wins on the road give momentum and teams on the rise use that to their advantage, Do you not think the win on the road at #17 then Citadel gave this team confidence? Chatt stinks..so they don't count, Furman on the road matters to this program Big time. Win and MU will receive ranking votes.....beat Samford (Furman momentum) and MU is notionally ranked. That is why a win means so much more then a Loss and make a BIG difference. Personal opinion, nothing more, but my response: 1. Mercer is a real player in the SoCon regardless of what happens Saturday. 2. I'm not sold on the Mercer/Furman rivalry. We've been around a lot longer. I can understand why Furman would be Mercer's rival, but Furman has other teams their fan base dislikes more (the Citadel, formerly Georgia Southern, App State, Marshall). Rivalries tend to change over time. We will see where this one goes. 3. I think Mercer is in the "average program" category. They are an unranked, good-not-great FCS team that is 1 game over .500. Isn't that the definition of "average?" In my view, most SoCon teams are probably overrated a bit. There hasn't been a legitimate national title contender in this conference in a number of years. I may be misremembering, but I don't think Mercer has ever faced one of those teams. I'm not talking about an overrated UTC or Wofford program. I'm talking full tilt James Madison, North Dakota State, Jacksonville State, etc. Those are the above-average programs. I posted this link over at AGS, but here's the 2004 GSU/Furman game in front of 18k fans in Greenville with two top 5 teams. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxi2v3wzg8k&t=3746sSome may disagree with me, but either of those two teams would beat the stuffing out of any current SoCon team. They were national title contenders. I don't see any current team in this conference that is. I could be surprised come playoff time. 4. The win over the Citadel was nice, but I think the Citadel is vastly overrated. Just because a team is ranked and managed to stay ranked with uninspiring wins over uninspiring competition doesn't mean its a program-changing victory. 5. I know winning in Greenville matters to Mercer. Beating Mercer matters to Furman. Perhaps more than any game this season. Unfortunately for Furman, Mercer entered the SoCon at arguably the darkest period in Furman's football history, and most certainly the darkest period in the last 40 years. 6. I'm not debating that its not a big game, I just don't think anyone will really view Mercer any different next week regardless. Furman is firmly rebuilding, coming off a 3 win season, and playing a ton of freshmen. 7. Lest you think I'm just being negative, I would apply all of this to Furman as well. A win over Mercer would be nice, but it won't be earth shattering. If we went into Harrisburg, VA or Fargo, ND in the post season and beat one of those teams? That would make a difference. |
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 18, 2017 10:17:50 GMT -5
2. I'm not sold on the Mercer/Furman rivalry. We've been around a lot longer. I can understand why Furman would be Mercer's rival, but Furman has other teams their fan base dislikes more (the Citadel, formerly Georgia Southern, App State, Marshall). Rivalries tend to change over time. We will see where this one goes. My thoughts on this: Mercer and its fans are in a fairly unique situation. Furman (and any other team in the conference, for that matter, other than ETSU) have rivalries that have formed over years and years of history. We don't have that, so I think we (Mercer fans) are more apt to go "looking" for a rival. Also, there isn't really a geographic rival that is naturally occurring either, as we are alone in GA, with Furman, Samford, and UTC all being similar in physical distance. To me, Samford and Furman fit into the "most like" category from an overall school profile standpoint, and I think that's why a lot of people have pointed at those two schools as "rival types". But, honestly, why I think Furman, in Mercer fans' minds, has risen to the top, from our perspective, is the Bobby Lamb connection. He's our coach, people love him (other than chez, lol), and he used to Coach there. I think it's a lot of "we want this one for OUR guy" kind of mentality. And, honestly now, with Coach Hendrix there? Kind a ratchets things up a bit don't you think? I mean, if this were the SEC game of the week on national TV, they'd have a full 4 minute package on the CBL/CCH thing. It's a great story line. But I totally understand where you are coming from regarding the Furman perspective. And I agree. It will take a number of years before the rivalry things firmly exists with any school when it comes to Mercer. Just too new, right now. |
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Post by jackal on Oct 18, 2017 10:31:26 GMT -5
2. I'm not sold on the Mercer/Furman rivalry. We've been around a lot longer. I can understand why Furman would be Mercer's rival, but Furman has other teams their fan base dislikes more (the Citadel, formerly Georgia Southern, App State, Marshall). Rivalries tend to change over time. We will see where this one goes. My thoughts on this: Mercer and its fans are in a fairly unique situation. Furman (and any other team in the conference, for that matter, other than ETSU) have rivalries that have formed over years and years of history. We don't have that, so I think we (Mercer fans) are more apt to go "looking" for a rival. Also, there isn't really a geographic rival that is naturally occurring either, as we are alone in GA, with Furman, Samford, and UTC all being similar in physical distance. To me, Samford and Furman fit into the "most like" category from an overall school profile standpoint, and I think that's why a lot of people have pointed at those two schools as "rival types". But, honestly, why I think Furman, in Mercer fans' minds, has risen to the top, from our perspective, is the Bobby Lamb connection. He's our coach, people love him (other than chez, lol), and he used to Coach there. I think it's a lot of "we want this one for OUR guy" kind of mentality. And, honestly now, with Coach Hendrix there? Kind a ratchets things up a bit don't you think? I mean, if this were the SEC game of the week on national TV, they'd have a full 4 minute package on the CBL/CCH thing. It's a great story line. But I totally understand where you are coming from regarding the Furman perspective. And I agree. It will take a number of years before the rivalry things firmly exists with any school when it comes to Mercer. Just too new, right now. I totally get it. I think that makes sense. Most of the older crowd at Furman has a long time hatred for the Citadel. For a while, Marshall had the ire of many. Most of the next generation saw App State and Georgia Southern as the primary rivals. All of those games had in common that virtually every time the teams played, there were HUGE implications. Often conference titles and playoff seeding at a minimum. Several times Furman played these teams in classic games deep into the post-season. Furman handed Georgia Southern their first home playoff loss ever in 2001. Those two teams have met for national championships twice. I'm not suggesting that Furman/Mercer won't be a thing. It's just that those other programs had so much riding on every meeting. That 2004 game was something else. Furman's visitor side holds about 7,000 fans (I think). No one comes close to filling it up. Georgia Southern did that day. If you can imagine an FCS game played in front of 17,000 fans, with 10,000 on one side pulling for Furman, facing 7,000 fans for Georgia Southern. It was almost as though the stands were an extension of the sideline. Us versus them. It's just hard to recreate that in the current SoCon. Not to say it won't ever happen, but rivalry games, I think, tend to organically develop because of a long shared history of emotional moments, not just "we play in the same conference." |
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ursus
Spires Bear
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Post by ursus on Oct 18, 2017 10:54:19 GMT -5
As someone who has been in the program, we definitely hate Furman more than any other team.
“There’s always a sour taste in our mouth when we play Furman. Even when I first arrived here, you could tell with Furman week. It is a bitter rivalry; I’m excited for this week.” - Kaelan Riley in the Telegraph this week.
Also Jackal saying that the Furman fanbase dislikes teams they haven't played in 3+ years probably encapsulates it best. We're here to give you that work and they aren't anymore so sit down, hold these 2 Ls, and keep complaining about our marketing strategy.
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Post by chez23 on Oct 18, 2017 14:13:38 GMT -5
It seems to me that some in here want MU to remain mediocre program and hesitant to see that it is time for MU to get over the hump of being average. Being average may be a comfortable position for some as it give you excuses to lean on week after week. MU tight losses, late losses are (again as stated in other threads) reasons why mediocrity is being accepted. It is almost like you afraid to see the importance of big games for the program. Maybe your not use to hype of a Big game and dont like the pressure? MU has done a great job in 4 yrs but for goodness sakes stop pacifying the facts that MU has a big chance here to get a W at Furman and home against Samford and then get some well deserved national attention. If MU loses both either by lopsided scores or losses 4th quarter leads then this staff could be together for the last year. Remember its a bushiness.
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 18, 2017 15:02:38 GMT -5
Lol. Chez, I played college sports, have been on teams my whole life, and coach college prospects now. I've been on teams that won conference divisions, played in conference championship games, won state titles. I think I have a pretty good idea about what it takes to build a winner, and what it's like to participate in a program at a high level.
Currently, you are hearing what you want to hear and not what is being said. At what point did I ever suggest that I was striving toward or hoping for mediocrity for the football program? Never. Because I'm not.
I just personally don't agree with your attitude toward, well, everything. The only time you ever come on the board to participate is to either 1) rake the team over the coals for not being good fast enough, or 2) act like whatever the last game outcome was or what the next game outcome is somehow defines the program as either amazing or total trash for the rest of all eternity.
Sorry, I just don't think it works that way. It's a process. Every season is different. Bottom line is this. The program started out a million times better than anyone expected (NCAA record for wins by a first year program), joined a traditionally powerful conference (3rd best in FCS by most measures) a bunch of years earlier than expected because of the fortuitous opening in the SoCon that no one could have predicted, started giving scholarships earlier than anyone expected because of the move to the SoCon, and has improved EVERY SINGLE YEAR since the program came back into the league. One win in SoCon Year 1, two wins in SoCon Year 2, and four wins in SoCon Year 3. And the team is still in a position to even have a better win total THIS year, depending on how it goes. Even if they match last years total, are they doomed to mediocrity because the won as many games as they did last year? It seems like you think that, and the reason I push back on your posts is because that's just a crazy thought. Mediocrity or greatness is determined over a much longer timeline than just 1 game. Everyone in the world knows that.
Furthermore, I think you could ask just about anyone in the world that doesn't have a connection to Mercer to evaluate the trajectory of the football program and I bet, universally, they would tell you it's pretty amazing where the program is considering it has only been playing games since 2013 and has only been giving scholarships since 2014, and is in a legitimate spot, from a talent AND results perspective, to be competing for a place in the FCS playoffs. It's kind of astounding, really. But, for some reason, you act like no one is doing their job.
The fact that you think people are going to get fired if Mercer doesn't go and get wins in these next couple of games (games they will be underdogs, I might add), kinda proves my point.
Jackal and knows about SoCon football history and is a Furman guy. Ask him how hard it is to win conference titles and perform in the playoffs. I won't speak for him, but I bet his answer is somewhere along the lines of "not easy".
I would just rather look at things realistically, and for what they are, and at the proper time (like when the body of work is complete after the season is over). I'm not a fan of reactionary hyperbole, which seems to be your default state.
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Post by chez23 on Oct 18, 2017 16:05:00 GMT -5
Never said the program was trash....or rake the team over the coals/ please find where I did either. I focus on this game because IMO it can be a statement game for the program. Programs have games like this that do matter for today and years to come. Evaluation of the program.. yes it has done a very good job...but lets not make it out to be as if they started the program with no advantages. Good conference, great facilities, great academics and in Georgia...one of best recruiting grounds in the country. So add all that up and 4 years in plenty of time to get where MU is today....and now they have a chance to take the next step. I dont disagree with a lot of what you say, but don't translate words from my thread into your own and make it sound like I dislike all that MU is. Getting better every year is tremendous....and this year can hopefully be their breakout year and make a statement that MU will be a force in years to come. Beat Furman and Samford and that happens. So much comes MU way with those two wins with recruiting being the biggest. A 3 star looking at any other SOCON program now WANTS to look at Mercer. Get them on MU campus and odds are in MU favor to land better recruits = domination in SOCON. If they lose both...yes change will be needed...if MU is serious about becoming a top tier SOCON program.
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Post by wcugrad95 on Oct 18, 2017 16:27:59 GMT -5
Outsider, so take it for what it is worth...
WCU has something like 15 TOTAL winning seasons since joining Division I-AA/FCS in the late 1970s. We played for a national championship in the ONLY season we have ever even made the playoffs, and that was 34 years ago!!! We have never won the SoCon title, and we haven't put a player in the NFL in I can't remember how long. We average 10k or more fans at home games even in our 2 and 3 win seasons. I'll take those fans over any fan who thinks that Mercer isn't on the right trajectory. Rebooting a program and being in a position for winning records and outside chances at playoffs births with only a few scholarship classes appears to the rest of the league like you guys are legit.
Don't take that the wrong way - I don't like that WCU history, and I wouldn't expect a single SoCon team's fans, players, or coaches to be happy or complacent with not competing for titles or vying to get into the playoffs (at least on a cyclical basis). But the truth is, you don't become a powerhouse program overnight. The Furman game is a great opportunity for Mercer, but in no way should be considered the last opportunity (it is just another of your "next" steps).
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Post by jackal on Oct 18, 2017 18:53:56 GMT -5
As someone who has been in the program, we definitely hate Furman more than any other team. “There’s always a sour taste in our mouth when we play Furman. Even when I first arrived here, you could tell with Furman week. It is a bitter rivalry; I’m excited for this week.” - Kaelan Riley in the Telegraph this week. Also Jackal saying that the Furman fanbase dislikes teams they haven't played in 3+ years probably encapsulates it best. We're here to give you that work and they aren't anymore so sit down, hold these 2 Ls, and keep complaining about our marketing strategy. I totally understand why Mercer would dislike Furman (in a football context, I guess). It's a natural connection and Mercer, as a new program, has no obvious rival. Mercer has sort of "created" their own football culture from whole cloth - band, students, stadium, uniforms, traditions, etc. Makes sense they'd want to kind of create a rivalry too. I'm not suggesting Furman still sees itself as rivals with Georgia Southern and App State anymore than Auburn is rivals with Georgia Tech. They used to be, but now play in different conferences and those days are gone. My only point is that rivalries don't just exist because people want one or the schools are sort of similar. They develop over time. |
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Post by chez23 on Oct 18, 2017 21:25:48 GMT -5
Outsider, so take it for what it is worth... WCU has something like 15 TOTAL winning seasons since joining Division I-AA/FCS in the late 1970s. We played for a national championship in the ONLY season we have ever even made the playoffs, and that was 34 years ago!!! We have never won the SoCon title, and we haven't put a player in the NFL in I can't remember how long. We average 10k or more fans at home games even in our 2 and 3 win seasons. I'll take those fans over any fan who thinks that Mercer isn't on the right trajectory. Rebooting a program and being in a position for winning records and outside chances at playoffs births with only a few scholarship classes appears to the rest of the league like you guys are legit. Don't take that the wrong way - I don't like that WCU history, and I wouldn't expect a single SoCon team's fans, players, or coaches to be happy or complacent with not competing for titles or vying to get into the playoffs (at least on a cyclical basis). But the truth is, you don't become a powerhouse program overnight. The Furman game is a great opportunity for Mercer, but in no way should be considered the last opportunity (it is just another of your "next" steps). Don't take this the wrong way but who really wants to play in Cullowhee, NC? The program is dated as are the facilities especially in today's game. Cant rely on history as a selling point in today's environment. These kids today want location, facilities and a chance to win more then lose. MU has Georgia, great sport facilities and good academics. Never did I say that MU wasn't on the right track, instead I am saying that this game versus Furman is a statement game, a game that can propel this program into national rankings. MU gets ranked and beats Samford at home then MU gets the attention of 3 star Georgia recruits who without a MU ranking may ignore MU all together. Yes it takes some time to build and MU has done a good job in 4 years....and to be in a position where this game Saturday can have a huge impact on taking the next steps.....is a credit to the program...period. Being legit is only impact-full if you win the big games. |
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Post by jackal on Oct 18, 2017 22:26:38 GMT -5
Good grief. Arguably the best player in the SoCon plays in Cullowhee (which is in a beautiful part of North Carolina, by the way), so someone wants to play there.
Here's the thing. Mercer has nice campus and facilities. You know what, so do a lot of other SoCon schools. In fact, not only do they have really beautiful campuses and great facilities, but they are in some of the premier cities in the south (Greenville, Charleston, Chattanooga, Birminigham, etc.)
Mercer has good academics. So do a bunch of other SoCon schools.
Georgia's a good recruiting center? I agree. You know who else recruits in Georgia? Pretty much all of the SoCon schools. Most of them are within a short drive of the border. Mercer isn't going to have a monopoly on that regardless.
I'm fine calling this game a statement game for both programs. It isn't going to be some program altering game. Both teams are doing fine under competent leadership. One will win, one won't.
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Post by BearDownMU on Oct 19, 2017 0:26:49 GMT -5
My goodness. Cullowhee is amazing. Beautiful part of the world (and a 20 minute drive from one of my favorite places, Harrah's Cherokee). Also, Tyrie Adams and Detrez Newsome want to play in the 'Whee, and they could play for anyone in the conference.
And how many times do we have to go over this recruiting thing? Here we are again with your obsession with "stars", which doesn't mean a whole lot at the FBS level and even less at FCS. How many stars did John Russ have? Oh yeah. None. He didn't even have any other scholarship offers. lol.
You really think a kid is going to get recruited by a Mercer coach, and in that meeting ask, "Oh yeah. You guys ranked?" And then tell them no thanks if the answer is no? Lol. That ain't how it works.
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