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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 26, 2016 16:08:43 GMT -5
For Investors this week...
SoCon Opponents Chattanooga at East Tennessee State - 12:00 PM Chattanooga East Tennessee State +33½ - Under 51½ Score Projection = about 42-9 Mocs
Mercer at VMI - 1:30 PM Mercer VMI +5½ - Under 53½ Score Projection = about 29-24 Bears
Wofford at Samford - 3:00 PM Wofford Samford -5½ - Under 55½ Score Projection = about 30-25 Bulldogs
Kennesaw State at Furman - 3:00 PM Kennesaw State Furman -14½ - Under 41½ Score Projection = about 28-14 Paladins
The Citadel at Western Carolina - 3:30 PM The Citadel Western Carolina +4½ - Under 57½ Score Projection = about 31-26 Bulldogs
PAST OOC Opponents Eastern Kentucky at Tennessee Tech - 7:00 PM Eastern Kentucky Tennessee Tech +3½ - Under 56½ Score Projection = about 30-27 Colonels
Miami Florida at Georgia Tech - 12:00 PM Miami Florida Georgia Tech +6½ (No Over/Under listed)
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Post by orangeandblack on Sept 26, 2016 16:30:37 GMT -5
I love the post since I like to bet, but sports books aren't trying to predict scores. They just want a spread that entices bettors 50/50 on both teams. Citadel followed by UTC look the best ones to me.
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Post by orangeandblack on Sept 26, 2016 16:34:24 GMT -5
I just realized this thread is for VMI/Mercer game chatter as well. This is obviously a huge game for the Bears. They went up to VA and beat them 2 years ago, no reason they can't do it again. I was thinking VMI would look good this year, but to be honest they have looked terrible. Nearly losing to a bad Pioneer Football League team. I think the Bears can take care of business here!
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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 26, 2016 16:58:07 GMT -5
I love the post since I like to bet, but sports books aren't trying to predict scores. They just want a spread that entices bettors 50/50 on both teams. Citadel followed by UTC look the best ones to me. Yeah, I know...but for those that don't invest regularly, a "projected score" makes it a bit more sports-themed for them. Kinda like the company logo's being shown on the stock ticker.
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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 26, 2016 17:24:53 GMT -5
I just realized this thread is for VMI/Mercer game chatter as well. This is obviously a huge game for the Bears. They went up to VA and beat them 2 years ago, no reason they can't do it again. I was thinking VMI would look good this year, but to be honest they have looked terrible. Nearly losing to a bad Pioneer Football League team. I think the Bears can take care of business here! CAN...No doubt. In case anyone cares, FUBeAR's KEY TO THE GAME is PRESSURE THE QB!!!!* Mercer did not blitz at all (that I saw) in the 1st half last year and VMI... ...scored 28 points ...had 270 yards passing ...had 130 yards rushing ...had 400 yards of total offense ...was sacked 1 time for 4 yards lost ...threw 0 interceptions * Mercer dialed up a wide variety of blitzes in the 2nd half (much like we saw vs. TTU in the 2nd half last week) and the Keydets... ...scored 0 points ...had 87 yards passing ...had 46 yards rushing ...had 133 yards of total offense ...were sacked 2 times for 9 yards lost ...threw 3 interceptions With the improvement athletically (overall) and depth-wise in the Secondary this year, utilizing the outstanding & relentless pass rushing abilities of Tripp Patterson, Tosin Aguebor, Kyle Trammell, Kyle Williams, Tyler Ward, Isaiah Buehler, Zach Jackson, and several other OLB's and DE's is pretty much a no-brainer the way I see it. Combine that with inside push Dorian Kithcart and Austin Barrett can provide, the Keydet O-Line should be getting a lesson in Coach Patton's pincer movements all day. (Language NSFW) Oh...and scoring some points on O by doing what the Bears do...that needs to be part of the plan as well.
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Post by mercerfan on Sept 26, 2016 22:07:54 GMT -5
I just realized this thread is for VMI/Mercer game chatter as well. This is obviously a huge game for the Bears. They went up to VA and beat them 2 years ago, no reason they can't do it again. I was thinking VMI would look good this year, but to be honest they have looked terrible. Nearly losing to a bad Pioneer Football League team. I think the Bears can take care of business here! CAN...No doubt. In case anyone cares, FUBeAR's KEY TO THE GAME is PRESSURE THE QB!!!!* Mercer did not blitz at all (that I saw) in the 1st half last year and VMI... ...scored 28 points ...had 270 yards passing ...had 130 yards rushing ...had 400 yards of total offense ...threw 0 interceptions * Mercer dialed up a wide variety of blitzes in the 2nd half (much like we saw vs. TTU in the 2nd half last week) and the Keydets... ...scored 0 points ...had 87 yards passing ...had 46 yards rushing ...had 133 yards of total offense ...threw 3 interceptions With the improvement athletically (overall) and depth-wise in the Secondary this year, utilizing the outstanding & relentless pass rushing abilities of Tripp Patterson, Tosin Aguebor, Kyle Trammell, Kyle Williams, Tyler Ward, Isaiah Buehler, Zach Jackson, and several other OLB's and DE's is pretty much a no-brainer the way I see it. Combine that with inside push Dorian Kithcart and Austin Barrett can provide, the Keydet O-Line should be getting a lesson in Coach Patton's pincer movements all day. (Language NSFW) Oh...and scoring some points on O by doing what the Bears do...that needs to be part of the plan as well. I don't know how I could agree MORE with this. Must get to QB!!! Also if we play the edges 12 yards off the WR, we will get killed. Just like the Samford game in 2015.
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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 27, 2016 3:14:17 GMT -5
CAN...No doubt. In case anyone cares, FUBeAR's KEY TO THE GAME is PRESSURE THE QB!!!!* Mercer did not blitz at all (that I saw) in the 1st half last year and VMI... ...scored 28 points ...had 270 yards passing ...had 130 yards rushing ...had 400 yards of total offense ...threw 0 interceptions * Mercer dialed up a wide variety of blitzes in the 2nd half (much like we saw vs. TTU in the 2nd half last week) and the Keydets... ...scored 0 points ...had 87 yards passing ...had 46 yards rushing ...had 133 yards of total offense ...threw 3 interceptions With the improvement athletically (overall) and depth-wise in the Secondary this year, utilizing the outstanding & relentless pass rushing abilities of Tripp Patterson, Tosin Aguebor, Kyle Trammell, Kyle Williams, Tyler Ward, Isaiah Buehler, Zach Jackson, and several other OLB's and DE's is pretty much a no-brainer the way I see it. Combine that with inside push Dorian Kithcart and Austin Barrett can provide, the Keydet O-Line should be getting a lesson in Coach Patton's pincer movements all day. (Language NSFW) Oh...and scoring some points on O by doing what the Bears do...that needs to be part of the plan as well. I don't know how I could agree MORE with this. Must get to QB!!! Also if we play the edges 12 yards off the WR, we will get killed. Just like the Samford game in 2015. CB's playing 'off' WR's is not really what hurt Mercer vs. Sammy in 2015. Missed tackles was the bigger problem; albeit aided by 3 uncalled blocks in the back on the 77 yard punt return for a TD...which occurred 1:06 seconds after a 94 yard TD pass play by the Bulldogs, where the WR caught the ball at or behind the LOS and 3 of Mercer's best defensive players missed tackles on him. Prior to opening the floodgates on those 2 plays, Sammy had dinked and dunked down the field until they crossed the 30, where there begins to be less room for the D to cover and they were forced to kick 4 LONG FG's with only 1 TD. Because they get the ball out so quickly in that offense (VMI's attack is a little different - more ProStyle, than FunGun, WestCoastSpread, or whatever name you want to give Sammy's O), QB pressure is tough...and with Sammy's QB being a good runner, I think the Defensive strategy of CONTAIN, with softer (not press) coverage and stiffening late in drives was a good one....but can't afford missed tackles and EVERYONE has to RUN to the football EVERY PLAY...and can't get 'down' if they do have a big play (as Mercer appeared to do - after containing them for 3 quarters and then falling apart in the 4th). 12 yards off is a bit excessive unless you have immediate underneath help from a 'walked' LB or rolled up Safety. But 8 yards (or so) off in a base zone coverage vs. that O is OK...as long as the DB's come up and make SURE tackles. Remember those Sammy WR's are BURNERS. With a lot of blitzing, you almost have to deploy some variety of man coverage or minimize the deep help in a zone blitz scheme. With Avant fighting a strained hammy all season and Houzah out with a knee injury, Mercer didn't have a lot of speedy options at CB by the final game of the 2015 season. Sammy, 2015, IMHO, wasn't lost because of the defensive game plan - it was lost because of poor execution (missed tackles) and the accompanying "here we go again; another loss in the 4th quarter" mindset that is SO VERY, VERY HARD to not have with a team of young men that HAD lost so many games in the 4th quarter throughout the 2015 (and 2014) season. I would imagine the more recent late wins over Chatt and FU faded quickly when those 2 big plays 'hit' and the losses to TTU, Woffy, WCU, VMI, and El Cid flashed back to the front of the Team psyche. Anyway, VMI's O is different than Sammy's and PRESSURE is THE way to get after it, IMO. That said, as mentioned above, pressure means less deep help for CB's; so you may not like the 'cushions' that you see when Mercer does blitz, but there is good reason for it. On the other hand, with Jeremy James, Eric Jackson, Stephen Houzah, and Kam Lott all healthy, Mercer now has more speed, athleticism, and depth at the CB position than they have had in previous seasons...so maybe a little press man coverage will be seen this Saturday. VMI has some very good and very experienced Retrievers though - I think #21 Sanders caught 59 passes in last year's game (in the 1st half) and #6 Forlines is a wily one. Those guys will catch their share on Saturday, but if the Bears can get #8's jersey dirty (VMI has real grass!) and make him throw it to the wrong color jersey a time or 4, it'll be all good...and we can worry about the Homewood BullPups in November...who knows they may have well over 100 cumulative yards rushing as a team for the season by then. Take away a fake punt (10 yards) and they are currently averaging around 5 yards rushing / game vs. FCS competition.
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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 27, 2016 15:06:32 GMT -5
VMI Has Momentum - by BJ Bennett - SouthernPigskin.comNow 2-1 after finishing with two wins in each of the past five seasons, the Keydets have eight straight league games to finish the year. “I'm just excited, a total team victory, and the first time we've won back-to-back road games in 35 years."~VMI Head Football Coach, Scott Wachenheim
After a thrilling triple-overtime victory over Bucknell, Virginia Military Institute has now won back-to-back games for the first time since 2005. The Keydets have topped Morehead State and the Bison in consecutive contests, giving the program, ready for Southern Conference play, potentially-powerful momentum ahead of its defining stretch. VMI hosts Mercer this Saturday in Lexington. For second-year head coach Scott Wachenheim, the impressive opening has been an important one. Early success has come with validation. “We have this wristband with the team, "TPF" for trust, play, finish. The kids trusted each other, they trusted their coaches, they trusted their preparation and played to win and then they finished," he explained. "I couldn't be more proud of the players." Last Saturday marked a seminal moment for VMI. After a go-ahead score by Bucknell late in the fourth quarter, the visiting Keydets responded with a 15-play drive that ended in a game-tying field goal by Reed King with less than a minute remaining. In three overtime sessions, the VMI defense did not allow a single point and secured the triumph on Daz Palmer's second touchdown run. The Keydets finished with 27 first downs, nearly 450 total yards and a very important victory. The end result was notable positive traction for a program making meaningful strides. "The O-line and Daz Palmer found a way to win. The defense and the defensive line came back; they were running the ball on us in the second half but they found a way to bow up in overtime," Wachenheim continued. "I'm just excited, a total team victory, and the first time we've won back-to-back road games in 35 years. It's pretty special." Now 2-1 after finishing with two wins in each of the past five seasons, the Keydets have eight straight league games to finish the year; there, additional progress will be measured. VMI will begin its run through the SoCon with two straight home contests, Mercer and East Tennessee State. This weekend will mark the program's first home game of 2016, a formal introduction upcoming with great excitement. Later in the slate, the Keydets will also host Furman and rival The Citadel at Foster Stadium. The series with the Bulldogs is one of the top rivalries in the FCS. Improvement is already on the books, with eight upcoming chances at more. VMI's focus now shifts to conference play, where the Keydets lost four games by six points or less a season ago. The hope is that the fast start, for VMI, is a sign of things to come.
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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 28, 2016 9:43:38 GMT -5
VMI Game Notes - MercerHeadlines from VMI's Game NotesVYING FOR THREEE - VMI is bidding for its third straight win, something the program has not accomplished since 2002. The Keydets beat Wofford, Chattanooga and Liberty Oct. 12-26 that season. FRANCIS NAMED DEFENSIVE POTW - Ryan Francis was named the SoCon Defensive Player of the Week Sept. 26 for his effort the previous weekend at Bucknell. Francis tallied a career-high 16 tackles in VMI’s 23-17 triple-overtime win at Bucknell on Saturday. Francis was credited with 14 solo stops in the win. The junior added two sacks, four tackles for loss and a pass break-up. COBB SETS MARKS - Quarterback Al Cobb added to his litany of school record in Sept. 24's win at Bucknell. Cobb moved into first place on VMI’s career list for passing yards (6,398) and took over the top spot from Eric Kordenbrock as VMI’s leader for career completions (581). SACKING THE BISON - VMI's defense posted six sacks in Sept. 24's win at Bucknell. It was the highest sack output since Oct. 11, 2003, when the Keydets also posted six sacks against Charleston Southern. A VMI Win against Mercer would...* Mark the first time VMI had won three straight games since October of 2002. One of those wins was against SoCon opponent Chattanooga (see next note). * Move VMI to 3-1 for the first time since 1991. * Mark the first time since 2001-2002 (Chattanooga) that VMI would have won two straight games over one of the teams currently in the SoCon. Tale of The Tape
VMI_____________Mercer21.3 Scoring Average 22.3 25.7 Points Allowed/Gm. 28.7 64 First Downs 59 143.3 Rushing Avg. 149.0 244.3 Passing Avg. 220.6 387.7 Total Offense Avg. 371.0 31:09 Time of Possession 28:37 148.7 Rushing Defense Avg. 214.2 300.3 Passing Defense Avg. 132.7 449.0 Total Defense Avg. 346.9
3 Interceptions Made 1 7 Sacks By 6 3-1 Fumbles-Lost 2-2 38% 3rd Down Conv. 45% 34% Opp. 3rd Down Conv. 50% 1/6 4th Down Conv. 1/4 3/8 Opp. 4th Down Conv. 3/5 22.2 Kick Return Average 19.6 8.6 Punt Return Average 15.0 +2 Turnover Margin +3 Stats are very close with the exception of Total Defense and the 'mix' of Opponents yards gained (see emphasized text above)...AND... VMI's Opponents, so far, have an Average Power Rating (Massey) of 23.01 Mercer's Opponents, so far, have an Average Power Rating (Massey) of 35.60 (55% higher rating than VMI's Opponents) VMI's Starting Defensive Line averages 6-3 243. This is significantly smaller than any that Mercer has faced to date. I would suspect they are also much faster, quicker, and have better 'motors' than the D-Lines Mercer's O-Line has blocked this year. VMI's Starting LB's average 6-2 212. Also much lighter than the Bears have seen previously. So...VMI's Starting Front 7 on Defense average 6-2 230. Very Small; but I'm sure lightning quick and fly to the football EVERY play.
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Post by mercerfan on Sept 28, 2016 12:20:48 GMT -5
VMI Game Notes - MercerHeadlines from VMI's Game NotesVYING FOR THREEE - VMI is bidding for its third straight win, something the program has not accomplished since 2002. The Keydets beat Wofford, Chattanooga and Liberty Oct. 12-26 that season. FRANCIS NAMED DEFENSIVE POTW - Ryan Francis was named the SoCon Defensive Player of the Week Sept. 26 for his effort the previous weekend at Bucknell. Francis tallied a career-high 16 tackles in VMI’s 23-17 triple-overtime win at Bucknell on Saturday. Francis was credited with 14 solo stops in the win. The junior added two sacks, four tackles for loss and a pass break-up. COBB SETS MARKS - Quarterback Al Cobb added to his litany of school record in Sept. 24's win at Bucknell. Cobb moved into first place on VMI’s career list for passing yards (6,398) and took over the top spot from Eric Kordenbrock as VMI’s leader for career completions (581). SACKING THE BISON - VMI's defense posted six sacks in Sept. 24's win at Bucknell. It was the highest sack output since Oct. 11, 2003, when the Keydets also posted six sacks against Charleston Southern. A VMI Win against Mercer would...* Mark the first time VMI had won three straight games since October of 2002. One of those wins was against SoCon opponent Chattanooga (see next note). * Move VMI to 3-1 for the first time since 1991. * Mark the first time since 2001-2002 (Chattanooga) that VMI would have won two straight games over one of the teams currently in the SoCon. Tale of The Tape
VMI_____________Mercer21.3 Scoring Average 22.3 25.7 Points Allowed/Gm. 28.7 64 First Downs 59 143.3 Rushing Avg. 149.0 244.3 Passing Avg. 220.6 387.7 Total Offense Avg. 371.0 31:09 Time of Possession 28:37 148.7 Rushing Defense Avg. 214.2 300.3 Passing Defense Avg. 132.7 449.0 Total Defense Avg. 346.9
3 Interceptions Made 1 7 Sacks By 6 3-1 Fumbles-Lost 2-2 38% 3rd Down Conv. 45% 34% Opp. 3rd Down Conv. 50% 1/6 4th Down Conv. 1/4 3/8 Opp. 4th Down Conv. 3/5 22.2 Kick Return Average 19.6 8.6 Punt Return Average 15.0 +2 Turnover Margin +3 Stats are very close with the exception of Total Defense and the 'mix' of Opponents yards gained (see emphasized text above)...AND... VMI's Opponents, so far, have an Average Power Rating (Massey) of 23.01 Mercer's Opponents, so far, have an Average Power Rating (Massey) of 35.60 (55% higher rating than VMI's Opponents) VMI's Starting Defensive Line averages 6-3 243. This is significantly smaller than any that Mercer has faced to date. I would suspect they are also much faster, quicker, and have better 'motors' than the D-Lines Mercer's O-Line has blocked this year. VMI's Starting LB's average 6-2 212. Also much lighter than the Bears have seen previously. So...VMI's Starting Front 7 on Defense average 6-2 230. Very Small; but I'm sure lightning quick and fly to the football EVERY play. FWIW Massey ranks the three teams that VMI has played as 85, 387, and 320 in Divison I. It ranks Mercer's opponents as 117, 41, and 306. I'm somewhat doubtful that "The Tale of the Tape" has much significance.
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Post by BearDownMU on Sept 29, 2016 9:31:11 GMT -5
Road games are tough in conference no matter what. It's our longest trip and their first home game. You always wonder how much "intangibles" like that play into the potential outcome.
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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 29, 2016 10:47:37 GMT -5
Road games are tough in conference no matter what. It's our longest trip and their first home game. You always wonder how much "intangibles" like that play into the potential outcome. Very true...That's why, back in the day (many eons ago), we (FU) used to FLY to Marshall and VMI (both in SoCon)...we would bus to Univ. of Florida (about 8 hours) for a non-conference game, but FLY to VMI, which would have been about a 5 hour drive. Cost/Expenses are ALWAYS a challenge, but IMHO, I think it would make sense to do everything possible to come up with the funding to fly from ATL to Roanoke...the difference in FU vs. MU could be though...I guess...is that they will still have to spend some significant BUS time trekking to and from Macon to ATL and Roanoke to Lexington (both trips are over an hour, one-way)...whereas FU to GSP was only 20-30 minutes...so maybe an 8 hour bus ride, with a break in CLT is just as good... Hmmm....I think I just lost an argument with myself. Where's Jackal when I need him? I always win my arguments against him.
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Post by BearDownMU on Sept 29, 2016 20:49:20 GMT -5
Unis for Saturday
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Post by FUBeAR on Sept 29, 2016 21:39:25 GMT -5
VMI's radio announcer previews the Mercer game in the 1st part of this podcast. Sounds to me like he's predicting that the Keydets will make the FCS Playoffs this season. augustafreepress.com/podcast-uva-vmi-football-previews-president-stuff/KeydetNation is sky-high & quite confident after their 2 back-to-back nail-biter road wins over perennial PFL & PL also-ran Teams. Reminds me of the ETSU situation where Wofford brought them back down to earth 31-0 last week. Exactly what Mercer needs to do on Saturday if the Bears want to show the SoCon & FCS Football that they, themselves, have 'the stuff' to be an FCS Playoff Team this season.
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Post by jackal on Sept 30, 2016 7:04:53 GMT -5
I don't know how I could agree MORE with this. Must get to QB!!! Also if we play the edges 12 yards off the WR, we will get killed. Just like the Samford game in 2015. CB's playing 'off' WR's is not really what hurt Mercer vs. Sammy in 2015. Missed tackles was the bigger problem; albeit aided by 3 uncalled blocks in the back on the 77 yard punt return for a TD...which occurred 1:06 seconds after a 94 yard TD pass play by the Bulldogs, where the WR caught the ball at or behind the LOS and 3 of Mercer's best defensive players missed tackles on him. Prior to opening the floodgates on those 2 plays, Sammy had dinked and dunked down the field until they crossed the 30, where there begins to be less room for the D to cover and they were forced to kick 4 LONG FG's with only 1 TD. Because they get the ball out so quickly in that offense (VMI's attack is a little different - more ProStyle, than FunGun, WestCoastSpread, or whatever name you want to give Sammy's O), QB pressure is tough...and with Sammy's QB being a good runner, I think the Defensive strategy of CONTAIN, with softer (not press) coverage and stiffening late in drives was a good one....but can't afford missed tackles and EVERYONE has to RUN to the football EVERY PLAY...and can't get 'down' if they do have a big play (as Mercer appeared to do - after containing them for 3 quarters and then falling apart in the 4th). 12 yards off is a bit excessive unless you have immediate underneath help from a 'walked' LB or rolled up Safety. But 8 yards (or so) off in a base zone coverage vs. that O is OK...as long as the DB's come up and make SURE tackles. Remember those Sammy WR's are BURNERS. With a lot of blitzing, you almost have to deploy some variety of man coverage or minimize the deep help in a zone blitz scheme. With Avant fighting a strained hammy all season and Houzah out with a knee injury, Mercer didn't have a lot of speedy options at CB by the final game of the 2015 season. Sammy, 2015, IMHO, wasn't lost because of the defensive game plan - it was lost because of poor execution (missed tackles) and the accompanying "here we go again; another loss in the 4th quarter" mindset that is SO VERY, VERY HARD to not have with a team of young men that HAD lost so many games in the 4th quarter throughout the 2015 (and 2014) season. I would imagine the more recent late wins over Chatt and FU faded quickly when those 2 big plays 'hit' and the losses to TTU, Woffy, WCU, VMI, and El Cid flashed back to the front of the Team psyche. Anyway, VMI's O is different than Sammy's and PRESSURE is THE way to get after it, IMO. That said, as mentioned above, pressure means less deep help for CB's; so you may not like the 'cushions' that you see when Mercer does blitz, but there is good reason for it. On the other hand, with Jeremy James, Eric Jackson, Stephen Houzah, and Kam Lott all healthy, Mercer now has more speed, athleticism, and depth at the CB position than they have had in previous seasons...so maybe a little press man coverage will be seen this Saturday. VMI has some very good and very experienced Retrievers though - I think #21 Sanders caught 59 passes in last year's game (in the 1st half) and #6 Forlines is a wily one. Those guys will catch their share on Saturday, but if the Bears can get #8's jersey dirty (VMI has real grass!) and make him throw it to the wrong color jersey a time or 4, it'll be all good...and we can worry about the Homewood BullPups in November...who knows they may have well over 100 cumulative yards rushing as a team for the season by then. Take away a fake punt (10 yards) and they are currently averaging around 5 yards rushing / game vs. FCS competition. Having watched a lot of Bobby Lamb-coached games, if you are expecting a pressure defense against a passing team, you might as well not hold your breath. If you are going to play off receivers against a team like Samford, VMI, or UTC (and before that App State), you have to make tackles. The idea is eliminate the big play downfield and force the offense to dink and dunk you all game. You make a quick strike team take 12 or 15 plays to score, there is a pretty decent chance they will eventually make a mistake, get behind the sticks, or throw one to the wrong color jersey. Defensive backs, though, have to come up fast and make the tackle. Those offenses survive on yards after the catch. Once in the redzone, the defense can clamp down a bit more. Those offenses are heavily reliant on space to make their machine work, and when the goal line gets closer, the space gets smaller. That's where good defenses will make their mark, in my opinion. That philosophy can lead to some gaudy offensive numbers, but tends to keep you in the game. The defense's goal is to keep the other team from scoring, not keep them from completing passes.
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